A Hash of Titans

Ezra Klein and Yoram Hazony just talk

Alas, I am not a great political thinker. I’m just a person experiencing our current political moment and most of the time I am at a loss. But I wanted to share a conversation I heard on a podcast that gave me hope.

It is a discussion between Ezra Klein and Yoram Hazony and you can listen to it here.

Ezra Klein stands out to me as a voice on the left that is both expressive in his values and also dedicated to understanding the other side of the issue. Yoram Hazony is someone I hadn’t heard of before this podcast, but his ideas have deeply influenced the political movement on the right. The title of the episode is Behind Trump and Vance Is This Man’s Movement.

Before clicking on the link I braced myself for the kind of showdown that has become pretty common in our politics, not because that is typical of Ezra’s show, but the importance of his guest and the title of the episode evoked a clash of titans. What I found instead was an earnest and deep discussion between two individuals who know how to disagree without hostility and even to get somewhere.

Yoram’s perspective reminded me so much of the talks that I’ve had with my older relatives and friends. He shares his fears about the direction of our country and defends the positions that he has taken that have been so influential. The problem, as he sees it, is a loss of national identity that he considers vital to the health of any nation. This loss of identity is the result of multiculturalism and the embrace of diversity. Ezra makes a strong case for why he believes that doesn’t fit, and I’ll let them speak for themselves.

What gave me hope is not any particular argument from either man but the way they talked, earnestly but without contempt. It seemed to me like they passed through a lot of common ground, even if they did not spend a lot of words in resting there.

In this discussion, both men express a dedication to liberalism, not in the sense that has become common in our political discourse but in the classic sense, the freedom of thought and expression. At a certain point, Ezra points out an apparent contradiction. Yoram believes in the value of a system that defends alternative perspectives and leaders that can pursue their cause without vilifying the people they oppose, but the administration that he supports generally does the opposite. He acknowledges this contradiction and laments that it seems to him to be a necessity. I’ve had many a conversation like that.

Trump’s hostility and pugilistic manner is not what many of his supporters prefer to see, so they say, but they do very little to push back perhaps because it seems to be an important part of his success. Yoram acknowledges it as a contradiction, he acknowledges he has many contradictions, and brings up Barack Obama as an example of the same behavior on the left. When Ezra questions that comparison, he gives an example from Hillary Clinton instead. They ultimately seem to recognize an impasse and move on.

It seems to me like it is a matter of winning at any cost, as long as conservatives are winning. But the cost is great, and bills have an unfortunate way of coming due, and this is one we are all going to pay. There are large parts of the left who seem to have learned exactly the wrong lesson and have responded with the same spirit of hostility and hate. Trump might seem to be winning, but that’s a war where we are all destined to lose.

And yet the alternative remains in front of us, and it has never been out of reach. These two men provide the best example of that alternative in recent memory. Talk. Listen. Try to understand, it can’t just be about winning. That’s the true American spirit, as I understand it.